Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Mephistophilis's avatar

Sorry for cross-posting from your blog - I haven't quite come to terms with Substack yet. As I said, thanks for sharing your draft book which I've now read. It is nice and clear and also not too long. It never ceases to amaze me how many people can hide very few ideas in very very many pages.

I think I agree with your pessimistic assessment that the field of consciousness studies is pretty barren. But I'm tempted to conclude that maybe that means we're asking the wrong questions or relying on the wrong sort of evidence.

Like most in the field you seem to take phenomenal consciousness or some closely related definition as a given. That it is a thing, a natural kind about which it is meaningful to talk about rather than say a family resemblance concept. Your discussion of the meaning of consciousness versus the meaning of artificial intelligence seems to highlight the contrast. But the joy of family resemblance labels is we can argue about edge cases, we don't have to find *the* inner essence of what AI is. But for consciousness as a natural kind you need to be finding objective causally active physical criteria to ground ascriptions of its presence and ascriptions of moral value. Yet you also recognise it can't really be defined or unequivocally detected.

I like your mimicry argument but of course that assumes we can access the thing being mimicked. And that the mimic is therefore fooling us. If we can't access consciousness - in that it isn't a thing that can be detected - then how can we say the mimic is mimicking it? Rather than some other properties that actually do the work of detection and ascription.

I agree with the idea that linguistic fluency is particularly tricksy in LLMs in comparison to humans - inverting our usual experience that language is a late sign of an inner world.

I also concur that so-called scientific theories of consciousness are speculative and hard to confirm but I take that more as a sign that we have a poor definition or even awareness of what consciousness is. You can't instrumentalise something that isn't a thing. But I do think that problems of minimal instantiation are less of an issue than often considered if you're willing to take a continuous rather than an all-or-nothing view of consciousness.

The thermometer proposal is nice butt without a good criterion for behaviourally detecting consciousness how do you find correlates? It seems a bit circular. You even say "This strategy will fail if consciousness is a loose amalgam of several features or if it splinters into multiple distinct kinds." Exactly! The family resemblance argument here is pretty pointed. Even setting aside the causal role question, a concept whose essential features remain unspecified after decades of inquiry is too indeterminate to pick out a class of systems reliably.

Autopoiesis is indeed a completely unjustified theory seemingly inspired by looking for things computers don't have and then pointing at them (microtubules again). I do think there's an entirely non-fatal but amusing observation that neurons are of course notorious for generally not being replaced (although they are of course continuously repaired on the molecular level). It accurately represents a lot of the biological essentialism debate though - seeming to depend on the intuition that *it just does* need biology and then looking for whatever ill-conceived example might fit your a priori criteria.

Your discussion of the concept of "life" is interesting because I think that is exactly the sort of useful analogy to consciousness. It is not a fact about the world whether a virus is alive or not. Because it isn't a natural kind. We may or may not decide arbitrarily to include or exclude it from the definition but there isn't some underlying inner property of life to be discovered beyond the clusters of known functional, causal, physical properties that we already know it has.

Finally I think you're right in your idea that there might be a social "semi-solution". That people's theories and definitions and intuitions will shift as they encounter more mind-like or seemingly intelligent artificial entities. But I think you don't consider going far enough. Classical definitions of consciousness appeal to supposedly universally understood facts and intuitions as to what it means to be conscious. Yet if people's folk theories are so malleable (and I believe they are) it seems the intuitions weren't so decisive after all.

Rather than trying to detect an ineffable property that by most definitions seems to play no causal role and therefore can't function as a criterion for anything, including our own introspective reports, maybe we should ask what we're actually tracking when we make consciousness and moral status attributions. My tentative proposal is bundles of overlapping, continuous, causally active features (persistence, agency, vulnerability, self-modelling, functional valence, memory, etc). These are at least detectable, comparable, and can in principle be studied empirically. They don't require resolving the hard problem. And I think the evidence from folk attributions (including extending moral concern to animals which doesn't sound like it depended on detecting the property of consciousness) suggests these structural features might be what people are actually responding to, rather than the presence or absence of a hidden inner essence.

Anyway thanks for the read and I'll keep an eye out for the published book.

Laurentiu Lupu MD's avatar

The deepest moral problem with AI may not be that it becomes too human. It may be that institutions begin assigning moral force to what cannot be morally answerable.

That is what makes this essay so clarifying. Once systems start shaping sentencing, triage, allocation, recommendation, or exclusion, this is no longer only a puzzle about consciousness. It becomes a new kind of moral asymmetry: consequences without accountability, influence without answerability, authority without moral standing.

What gives the piece its force is that it names this as disorientation rather than mere novelty. Our categories are not just being expanded. They are being strained by entities our practices are already using before our moral language knows what to do with them.

12 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?