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Bryan Frances's avatar

Hi Eric. I don't anything about this area of philosophy, but if an individual or group of individuals are advanced enough to simulate me and my city, in the detail that I actually encounter, well, that seems insanely impressive. No? Any such beings would be wildly more advanced than we are. So, why think we can speculate with any reliability about how they do it?

At one point, you wrote "Naturally, this would be extremely complicated and expensive!" Would it, though? Maybe it would almost be child's play for them. Again, if my actual experience is the result of simulation, then it seems to me that the powers behind it are so freakin' advanced that we would be silly to even speculate how they do it, or how hard it was for them.

I suppose I'm missing something obvious here!

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David Chalmers's avatar

thanks, eric, for these very interesting thoughts. i wrote some partial thoughts in reply a little while ago. time is passing and these are unfinished but maybe they're better than nothing!

one initial reaction is that it would be great to know more about how the "seeding" process works. i take it that what you have in mind is something like scripting, e.g. scripting a history for the world in as much detail as necessary to support the experiences of a few core simulated people. i suspect that the easiest method of large-scale scripting is via simulation, but presuambly there are other ways, more akin to what a novelist or a sceenwriter does.

the big downside of scripting compared to simulating is that simulations support all sorts of counterfactuals (if this had happened, this would have happened) whereas non-simulation scripting doesn't. perhaps this doesn't matter too much in scripting a full history for the world. but it will be tricky for a scenario with ongoing interaction between sims and scripted elements. this is perhaps clearest if the sims are non-deterministic, but the same goes if they are just practically unpredictable. a sim can perform multiple actions, each affecting the scripted world in different ways (except perhaps in special cases, e.g. scripting beyond the solar system, but i'm focusing on smaller-than-earth simulations here).

so presumably the script will have to be updated in an ongoing moment-by-moment way depending on sims' actions. any wholly scripted beings interacting with sims will have to be updated in moment-by-moment interaction. again by far the easiest way to do this reliably (consistent with laws, etc) will be by some sort of simulation -- maybe simulation in the head of the scriptwriters but this isn't really different in principle. maybe you have some different vision of how the interaction between simulation and scripting will go, in which case it would be good to hear it!

another idea, perhaps compatible with full simulation or with simulation plus scripting, is a tiered model where the level of detail can fall off fast: some core people and places (tier 1) are modeled in much detail, the other people and places they interact with (tier 2) are modeled in medium detail (perhaps just scripted), the other people and places that the tier-2 people and places interact with (tier 3) are modeled just in sketchy detail, and so on. so perhaps NYC and the people in it are in tier 1,our family and friends outside the city (including eric!) and places we've visited are at level 2, and so on. in another megalomaniacal version, tier 1 contains only me, and the other tiers extend from there according to interactions with me.

but now: is it really an open possibility for me that my family are just tier-2 models? when i zoom with eric, is it really plausible that his responses are produced by a script or a tier-2 simulation? his behavior is detailed and impressive, where tier-2 models presumably produce less impressive behavior. the same goes for books, music, and art that i've consumed by people outside tier 1. i don't think it's really plausible that these were produced by tier 2 processes. maybe the idea is that when the tier-2 models interact with tier-1 models (e.g. they zoom with me or even write a book or a blog post that i read), we raise their capacities to tier 1, but the rest of the time they're modeled at the less impressive tier 2? this gets tricky. i've never read "war and peace" but i've read a lot about it. is it just the cliffs notes version that exists right now, until one day i go to read it? or more naturally is it written already, at least in order to help generate the text about it that i've already read? worse, if half the people in the world have interacted with someone in NYC, then presumably they will all have to have been operating at tier-1 level for at least some of their lives. suddenly the tiered model starts to look pretty expensive!

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