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Chris Schuck's avatar

Thanks for the commentary! Like Julia, I have not read Neil's book, but your summary and objections were laid out very clearly so it's tempting to share a couple questions now. (For transparency I am not at all religious, but intend this in a way that could leave open the possibility of religious belief as factually correct and not just credal).

If religious credence is not supposed to or doesn't need to respond to factual beliefs, to me this is consistent with what religious friends have told me about the nature of faith, which is that "proof" or "evidence" is kind of beside the point - it's more about willingness and openness to believe (or *try* to believe) - and the effort to hold onto that faith in the face of inevitable doubt - as much as being sure or degrees of confidence. It's a spiritual practice, more than an epistemological one. So like you, I see this in the middle rather than entirely distinct from belief - but I'm not sure any of the examples discussed here really capture what I described above, which is neither "make-believe" nor emotionally-loaded/favored attitudes nor percentage confidence, but more like a spirit of openness and willingness to listen for that voice. Is this "belief-ish"? I'm not sure.

Second, I wonder if Creationism is the best representative example because that's quite literal and quantified, so of course it's easy to see the conflict with factual beliefs. The earth can't be both 6 million years old *and* 6000 years old. But simply being willing to believe in God or the possibility of miracles or other religious beliefs could point toward a different realm and logic outside of earthly facts and logic, rather than one directly in conflict - no?

Finally (and this is where my nonbelief shows): I wondered if Neil gets at all into genealogical debunking and how the way someone's religious beliefs developed might bear on whether it should be evaluated as credence or misbelief. For instance, if someone grew up in a repressive, ideological Christian family or community, I might feel more inclined to view these as beliefs but then question them critically due to suspicions of brainwashing, than put them in a special category where they might not be accountable to evidence. But perhaps I am being inconsistent here.

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julia's avatar

Hi Eric, I have not read Van Leeuwen's book, but I wonder if he says anything about the rationality of "religiously creeding"? If religious attitudes are beliefs, we can evaluate whether they are rational based on their responsiveness to evidence or the reliability of the means by which they were formed or [some other standard way of assessing epistemic justification]. But how do we evaluate the rationality of religious attitudes?

Our map for beliefs can be evaluated on how accurate it is and on the means by which we formed it; how is our map for religious attitudes evaluated?

As someone who has religious beliefs, I feel very sympathetic to your third criticism. When I have religious beliefs that I perceive as in tention with my non-religious beliefs, I feel uncomfortable. And when I act in ways that are inconsistent with my religious beliefs, the phenomenology of that experience is similar to the phenomenology of akrasia.

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